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Removing J-Frame lock

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Removing J-Frame lock

Postby Atilla » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:13 pm

It's snowing out, I'm gonna try this while watching the game. Looks like a 10 minute job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVPYgohVCNM
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Re: Removing J-Frame lock

Postby Stealie » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:40 pm

Good luck luck with the project. Thanks for the vidio post as well.
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Re: Removing J-Frame lock

Postby BobK » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:07 pm

Atilla wrote:Looks like a 10 minute job.

Well, it is about 3 hours later. How did your one hour project go?
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Re: Removing J-Frame lock

Postby Atilla » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:08 pm

Atilla wrote:It's snowing out, I'm gonna try this while watching the game. Looks like a 10 minute job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVPYgohVCNM



Would have been a 10 minute job, except the plunger and spring (maybe 2mm) in the cylinder bolt went FLYING across the room. I did find them, removed the internal lock (the external lock mechanism/spring remains but does not touch the action in any way, so it looks 'normal' ) and put it all back together, seems fine in dry fire, will try at the range Monday.

Upon further web searches, I found that by NOT removing the entire lock assembly there is a risk of the lock cylinder coming loose. The video above is a great guide to get to the locking flag, but others recommend either removing the entire assembly or grinding down the stud on the locking flag. http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handg ... moval.html

I knew that fix seemed too easy!!! I am getting out the Dremel to smooth out the face of that flag and put it back in. I suppose I am voiding a warranty and making it illegal in Maryland but I have other priorities.
Last edited by Atilla on Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Removing J-Frame lock

Postby Atilla » Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:14 pm

An hour later it's all together, lock mechanism and lock flag plate (with locking post ground down and polished smooth) still in place. Dry fires fine in locked and unlocked position. From what I could see in there, the potential lock-up problem probably comes from the small roundwound spring that keeps the locking flag in the unlocked position or the cam on the lock cylinder. Should that spring fail, or should enough gunk get in there to gum up the mechanism enough to overpower that spring, the recoil of a +P or even target round (or the impact of a drop)could rattle it to locked position--dumb design just to sell a few guns in Maryland or California or wherever.

If I ever have to do it again, taking out locking flag, grinding post down and reassembling, I'd say a 45 minute fix.
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Re: Removing J-Frame lock

Postby swharley » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:29 pm

Over on Smith & Wesson forums there is a guy that makes plugs for the lock hole. Remove the lock completly and just plug the hole. Pretty slick setup and looks real good when finished.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/112661-plug-thread.html
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Re: Removing J-Frame lock

Postby Atilla » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:13 pm

swharley wrote:Over on Smith & Wesson forums there is a guy that makes plugs for the lock hole. Remove the lock completly and just plug the hole. Pretty slick setup and looks real good when finished.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/112661-plug-thread.html



Those do look nice, mine looks 'stock' from the outside, the entire lock and locking flag is in there but does nothing but fill in the space behind the cylinder bolt and hammer. Will have range report Monday.
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Re: Removing J-Frame lock

Postby ScottyPotty » Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:31 pm

I did my 642 about a year ago - I didnt have any lockup issue, I was bored and wanted to fiddle. I ended up grinding the lug off too - its really the only way to go when preforming this surgery.


I saw the guy who makes the plugs - I wonder how it would look on 642? At $25 - they arnt cheap.
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Re: Removing J-Frame lock

Postby NavyChief » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:01 pm

Pretty good tutorial on it here:

http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/fo ... hp?t=68058

You do have to be a registered member to see the pix, but it's worth it, IMHO.
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Re: Removing J-Frame lock

Postby SMMAssociates » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:16 am

I'm surprised nobody else posted this....

(Mas Ayoob paranoia hat on....)

NEVER remove or defeat a factory-installed "safety" device, even if it's a "Hilary Lock"....

While CHL holders may not have problems, LEO's generally will, and it's a chance we shouldn't take, either. In the event that you shoot somebody, the BG's lawyers (or his heirs' lawyers) will be all over you for being "bloodthirsty", etc.

Either get a receipt when you buy the gun that clearly indicates that somebody else removed the thing (this might not work), or buy a gun that doesn't have one....

You probably can (IANAL) get away with improved sights, grips, etc., on a "better control" basis, but "I want it to work when I need it" doesn't seem to be a good idea. Not to mention things like "you endangered the children of the burglar who brings his kids to work", etc.

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Re: Removing J-Frame lock

Postby chadwimc » Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:44 am

I couldn't see a lawyer knowing that a lock has been disabled. If *YOUR* lawyer was smart, he would stress the fact that you don't remember removing the lock...
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Re: Removing J-Frame lock

Postby Brian D. » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:29 am

SMMAssociates wrote:
"I want it to work when I need it"



That is exactly what I'd tell the courtroom, Stu, and there's enough documentation out there of the new locks failing, especially under heavy recoil, to help back up that assertion. (Not gonna list them here though, too much like work digging them out of forum boards and posting the links just for discussion's sake.)

Moot point for me, I only shop for S&W revolvers on the pre-owned market these days, and plenty from the pre-lock era can still be found.
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Re: Removing J-Frame lock

Postby pleasantguywhopacks » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:03 am

Some new jframes are being made (optional) with out the lock IIRC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOxXpNBdrVE
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Re: Removing J-Frame lock

Postby Atilla » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:22 am

SMMAssociates wrote:I'm surprised nobody else posted this....

(Mas Ayoob paranoia hat on....)

NEVER remove or defeat a factory-installed "safety" device, even if it's a "Hilary Lock"....

While CHL holders may not have problems, LEO's generally will, and it's a chance we shouldn't take, either. In the event that you shoot somebody, the BG's lawyers (or his heirs' lawyers) will be all over you for being "bloodthirsty", etc.

Either get a receipt when you buy the gun that clearly indicates that somebody else removed the thing (this might not work), or buy a gun that doesn't have one....

You probably can (IANAL) get away with improved sights, grips, etc., on a "better control" basis, but "I want it to work when I need it" doesn't seem to be a good idea. Not to mention things like "you endangered the children of the burglar who brings his kids to work", etc.

Regards,


The only liability you could open yourself up to is a situation where a "child" steals your unlockable (formerly lockable) gun and shoots his young friend (who was just getting his life back together....). It is tantamount to removing a child seat in a car with no children in it, or leaving an umbrella home on a sunny day. Any decent defense attorney would point out the numerous complaints of failure to fire received by S&W, returns of locked-up revolvers, and most importantly, the fact that non-IL guns are being made again. Also, I wonder what kind of liability S&W was concerned about should one of their weapons lock up in a SD situation. How many firearms are actually disassembled and traced to look for modifications, even in deadly force cases. A well made plug looks factory supplied, and a ground locking flag pin looks stock as well.

I read Mr Ayoob's article on modifications and a zealous prosecutor (or plaintiff's civil attorney more likely) could bring up modifications. It sort of bugs me Mr Ayoob is always on the prosecution side, at least in the articles I have read (I have learned a lot from his firearms videos on youtube). Guns are made to be fired. Safely and legally of course. If one needs to use a IL gun legally, the lock or no lock would be a moot point, unless it caused a FTF. If anyone is a S&W forum member, there are hundreds of posts on internal lock problems over there. This whole lock nonsense was part of a bailout of S&W explained in Wikidpedia: " Agreement of 2000:

In March 2000 Smith & Wesson signed an agreement with the Clinton Administration in order to avoid lawsuits.[4] The company agreed to numerous safety and design standards, as well as limits on the sale and distribution of their products. Gun clubs and gun rights groups responded to this agreement by initiating large-scale boycotts of Smith & Wesson by refusing to buy their new products and flooding the firearms market with used S&W guns, cutting into their market share. [5][6] This agreement signed by Tomkins PLC ended with the sale of Smith and Wesson to the Saf-T-Hammer Corporation. The new company (Smith and Wesson Holding Corporation), which publicly renounced the agreement, was received positively by the firearms community.[7]"

My only problem is with S&W. The locks on Taurus are on the hammer, and should they ever fail (never heard of one failing, unlike S&W) they fail safe (they will fire). Not sure on the Rugers. This is all due to Maryland demanding internal locks, and manufacturers folding to the pressure. Makes one think what the manufacturers will do when the Staazi/Gestapo/KGB/BATFE/OSHA pass regs to get the records of persons leaving warranty, gunsmith, product registration info.
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Re: Removing J-Frame lock

Postby SMMAssociates » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:11 pm

Brian D. wrote:
SMMAssociates wrote:
"I want it to work when I need it"



That is exactly what I'd tell the courtroom, Stu, and there's enough documentation out there of the new locks failing, especially under heavy recoil, to help back up that assertion. (Not gonna list them here though, too much like work digging them out of forum boards and posting the links just for discussion's sake.)

Moot point for me, I only shop for S&W revolvers on the pre-owned market these days, and plenty from the pre-lock era can still be found.

Brian:

Might be some risk here between the intelligence/competence of the jury and my lawyer, not to mention the nastiness of the other guys.... Common sense seems to be absent in the courtroom at times.... :(

Atilla:

Seems like the same sort of answer applies to your comments. I'm not sure that a jury would buy the "so it will work" comments because S&W sold so many of them with the lock, even with the evidence of failure that can be presented. Makes us look more paranoid.... (Has anybody sued S&W because a Hilary Lock didn't work?) WE know that it's a stupid idea, but the idea that your gun is useless if stolen is going to carry a lot of weight. (That the keys are kind of standardized, easily available, and the whole mess can be Dremel'd by a kid who has any information, may go past the Jury.)

Mas Ayoob seems to make his money defending LEO's and writing books & such. I think he really is a tad paranoid about this, but he seems to live well :D....

Never met the guy, but he worked with a buddy of mine who liked him. I have chatted briefly with him on the web - he was complaining about the TSA and his problems getting guns on aircraft. Told him to change his name.... :mrgreen:

Just don't buy 'em....

Regards,
Stu.

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