Range Reports

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M-Quigley
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F.I.E. 25 auto pistol

Post by M-Quigley »

F.I.E. Titan .25 auto pistol

Although I don't own this gun, I had the opportunity to try out an F.I.E. Titan .25 auto pistol. Calling this pistol a "Titan" is definitely an oxymoron. :lol: Although they don't make them new any more, they are still available on the used market in the $50 average range.

At first glance it looks similar to the Colt Junior or Astra cub, but there are some important differences. It does not have a magazine safety, and the magazine release is at the bottom of the grip, not a button like the Colt. It is single action, with a 6 round magazine. The safety is on the left side, flip rearward facing for fire, turn clockwise to forward facing for safe. It was easy & quick to do with the thumb of my right hand, but might be a problem for left handed shooters. It has a half cock position on the round hammer. The safety only blocks the trigger. The barrel's rifling looks good, and there's no pitting or corrosion anywhere on the handgun. The trigger pull has a approx. 1/8 inch light takeup travel before resistance is felt, and then breaks cleanly. I'm guessing, but the trigger pull feels like it's it's in the 5 lb. range. It doesn't have a tip up barrel like the Beretta or Taurus, but it's extremely easy to chamber a round. The rear sights are just a notch at the back of the slide.

It's got a 2.5" barrel, it's 4.5" long, almost 3/4" thick, and height 3.75", about the same as a ruger LCP with a flat bottomed magazine. The advantage in size that it has over the small 380's and even other cheap 25 autos like Lorcin, Jennings, etc, is the width. The other 25's look like a brick compared to this handgun. It's about as thin as you can get with a 25 acp.

The Titan 25 auto can easily fit in even a shirt or vest pocket. I have average size guy hands, and I can completely cover up the gun with the palm of my hand and my fingers outstretched. (even with my thumb sticking up) The owners wife commented that she could easily conceal it even if she were wearing a evening dress. In order to get significantly smaller than this type of handgun you'd probably have to go the mini revolver route.

Fortunately the guy that inherited the guns inherited some partial boxes of ammo too, and 3 different brands were used for testing. Sellier & Bellot, PMC, and Aquila. We fired a total of 60 rounds. There were no FTE or FTF.

This first photo is the Sellier & Bellot. In the pictures, where it says 3 shots at 21 feet, it should be 2, not 3.

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The 2nd photo at ten yards is the PMC. This turned out to be the most accurate ammo for this particular pistol, with no key holing. Group size was 2 inches, slightly to the right of aim for my eyes. I also fired the PMC ammo at ten feet on a different target, but didn't take a picture of it as the phone was dying. The 3 holes were almost touching each other, with one directly on the X spot.

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The Aquila ammo was fired at 7 yards, and was six shots instead of three. The reason for 6 shots was the first 3 shot group was so large I thought it was me and fired a 2nd 3 shot group. These rounds key holed the most, with some holes that looked like they almost hit sideways. Not a slight on Aquila, it's possibly just this particular gun prefers the PMC.


Some have said the size advantage that 22 and 25 autos used to have is a moot point now that guns exist like the kel tec 32 and P3AT, rugers LCP and similar size guns. They are only a little more than half an inch longer in length, and shoot cartridges that are more powerful than a .25. Even though I could only get a 2 finger grip on the grip, it didn't matter with the almost non existent recoil. Even rapid firing it one handed was easy, so I guess it still has that advantage over a micro 380. You can find plenty of failure stories with the mouse gun calibers, but you can find success stories also, just like with any caliber. I said in my previous review that the 32 S&W would be my last choice as a defensive caliber, but even it might be more effective than a 25 acp. Still, this gun is safe to shoot, and the 1901 H&A isn't safe anymore with modern smokeless ammo. It can easily put 7 rounds in someones vital areas at typical handgun defensive distances if the shooter does his or her part, which might be required to be effective for this round.

It isn't the best example of a .25 acp or the worst. It is reliable and quite accurate for the distances a tiny defensive handgun is typically used. The P32 is not much larger however, and shoots a more powerful (cough) round. If someone is going to carry a .25 auto though, I guess this particular handgun isn't a bad choice. It proves that a cheap gun can be reliable and accurate with the right ammo combination.
M-Quigley
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Re: Range Reports

Post by M-Quigley »

This is additional info to the review for the FIE titan 25 auto pistol just above this post. Sometime after the initial review, someone the owner knew was berating 25 cal pistols in general. He said he had a 25 auto once, (a Raven) and he had a hard time hitting the side of a 2X4 at ten feet, and when he did it almost put his eye out when the bullet bounced back from the 2X4, only making a scratch on it's surface. He couldn't remember exactly what brand it was, just that it probably was old ammo because it had been sitting on the gun stores shelf for a long time. That and all the stories out there of people getting shot with 25 autos and barely noticing, or the clothing stopping the bullet. He said you'd be better off with a knife than a 25, because all that's gonna do is make them mad at you, and they'll take it away from you and beat you over the head with it. :?: My thought was when I heard this was, why can't the defender just beat them over the head with it instead?

I did see the aftermath of someone getting shot in the head once with a 25 acp, and it didn't penetrate the skull. (although the glancing position it hit high up I doubt any fmj round nose handgun bullet would have.) Despite this it incapacitated the victim briefly. I've also seen a DB with a single 25 auto shot. When the owner showed him the results of the test, he claimed that 10 yards is nothing, what if the bad guy is farther away, and a defensive pistol should be tested at 25 yards, and if you did, you couldn't hit the other guy at all. :roll: This btw isn't a target gun.

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Since there was 8 bullets left in the box, and his wife said she wasn't planning on shooting it, we decided, what the heck, why not try it the next time we happen to be out shooting anyway. I thought, what if you found yourself in an active shooting situation, in some kind of protected or semi concealed position, and the shooter was 25 yards away, not looking right at you? You had some kind of means of hand support, like a table, a door opening, or perhaps you're sitting down under a table, resting your elbow on a knee? I fired 3 shots table supported, 2 shots sitting, and 2 with hand against a post simulating a door opening. All the shots hit to the right of the aimpoint, so the final shot I did on the table but aimed to the left of the black dot, hoping to get at least one of them somewhere in the black. The speed of the shots was about 1 every second, not rapid fire, but not super slow either. The distance ended up being only about 22 yards because of standing water in the area directly in front of the berm. (68 feet)

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A 2X4 was behind the paper target. Only 4 of the 8 bullets struck the 2X4, and 1 of those did not go completely through the 2X4. (although it almost made it through) None of them just bounced off, although I don't doubt his story. If you have a round that keyholes sideways when hitting mere paper, it's probably not going to penetrate well. Keyholing after it enters a body is probably better. We also fired 4 rounds of 22lr (thunderbolts) with a SR22 just at the 2X4 just for penetration testing, and they all went through.

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If I were in a defensive shooting situation like the scenario mentioned, would I want this gun over some larger caliber gun? Heck no, but if it's all I had, it could possibly do the job if it had to. This is a handgun that is light and definitely easy to conceal.

So the good news is the PMC Bronze 25 acp ammo works pretty good in even a cheap Titan pistol. The bad news is now his wife is thinking of practicing with it, but we found out that PMC discontinued this caliber in the Bronze line. :|
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Re: Range Reports

Post by Brian D. »

Can't speak for the FIE but the little tip up Berettas in .25 auto are similarly accurate. Thing that seems to hold them back from shooting even tighter is trying to use those tiny sights.
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Re: Range Reports

Post by Mr. Glock »

Brian D. wrote:Can't speak for the FIE but the little tip up Berettas in .25 auto are similarly accurate. Thing that seems to hold them back from shooting even tighter is trying to use those tiny sights.
I carried the Jetfire 25 back in the day (single action 25). I really like the fact that Keltec invented the P380.
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M-Quigley
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Re: Range Reports

Post by M-Quigley »

Mr. Glock wrote:
Brian D. wrote:Can't speak for the FIE but the little tip up Berettas in .25 auto are similarly accurate. Thing that seems to hold them back from shooting even tighter is trying to use those tiny sights.
I carried the Jetfire 25 back in the day (single action 25). I really like the fact that Keltec invented the P380.
I do too. Although a 22 or 25 is better than no gun if you use the right tactics and practice with it, the round is so underpowered that you need surgical like accuracy to be effective. While that's possible on the range, your mileage may vary against a person in a defensive shooting encounter. If all you can get is a lung, abdominal or extremity shot, at least the BG might know they actually got shot. In addition, practice ammo is cheaper and more readily available with 380 upwards, and there's a lot of variety with the specialty defensive ammo.

Although the recoil is greater, I've noticed that recoil doesn't seem to be as noticeable a factor in a stressful or real life situation as it is merely practicing on a range. Plus, in most real life shooting situations, you're not firing 30-50 rounds either.
M-Quigley
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NAA 22lr single action revolver 1 inch barrel

Post by M-Quigley »

I have an acquaintance who inherited some firearms, and we've done testing of some of them before the weather turned bitter cold. One of them was a North American Arms stainless steel 22lr single action mini revolver. To load it you have to pull out the center pin and take out the cylinder, then put it all back in. To empty the spent shells, same process. It has a birds head shaped grip. Although it's not a powerful rapid fire rapid re loadable handgun, it is definitely concealable. In fact it is probably the most concealable handgun currently available. This type of gun has been concealed in the lighter pocket of some jeans, and with a few people some places I won't mention. :lol:

Although this was designed as primary a close contact weapon, just for curiosity sake we tried it at various ranges. The ammo used was Remington thunderbolts. Using a subsonic round would've had less of a kick, but probably less penetration. Sadly we couldn't do any velocity or penetration tests at that time.

With this gun if you try to line up the top of the top sight to the back of gun you are way low. The best way we found to aim it :lol: was to ignore the front sight completely for elevation, and sight the gun along the top backstrap. Here is a pic of the results when I shot it. Three shot groups, 10, 15, and 21 feet. This was using one hand to hold the grip, and the finger of the other hand to pull the trigger. Trying to shoot it one handed caused the muzzle to flip skyward after each shot.

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You can get aftermarket folding grips and longer barreled versions for better accuracy and easier shooting, magnum versions for more velocity, but then there's a trade off in conceal ability. I read somewhere once of an undercover detective who was taken hostage and searched for weapons, but the BG didn't find the mini revolver. The undercover cop eventually shot the BG in the head at close range, ending the situation favorably.

It's a nice gun to have in a collection. I don't know if I would go as far as using it as a EDC gun by itself, but I can see where it has it's uses.
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Re: Range Reports

Post by M-Quigley »

One quick thing I forgot to mention in the NAA 22LR mini revolver review. If anybody is considering buying one for carrying, there are notches in between the cylinders. If you partially pull the hammer back (obviously keep the barrel pointed in a safe direction) you can rotate the cylinder to inbetween the chambers, then the hammer blade will rest in that notch, and the barrel won't rotate from an external force to it. It will rotate like normal however when you pull back the hammer to full cock and properly align for firing. The other options are the half cock and having the hammer on an empty chamber, like what the cowboys did in the old west days, but then you have 4 rounds instead of five.
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Sig Sauer 1911 RCS model, .45ACP

Post by Brian D. »

Sig Sauer 1911 RCS model, .45ACP

So I tumbled for a new-to-me low miles used 1911 a week or two ago. Specifically the Sig Sauer RCS model. It has a 4.25" barrel (like a Colt Commander) and compact (like a Colt Officer's ACP) grip frame. In fact Colt makes such a product themselves and market it as the "Concealed Carry Officer's" or CCO for short. Anyhow, enough about imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, let's discuss this Sig.

The RCS is the same dimensions as...here I go again...the Sig C3 model, but the RCS is given a few extra touches in the custom shop. Mainly the corners and edges are rounded off somewhat, making the gun more pleasant to grab, hold, and shoot. I suspect the trigger works got some polishing as well, it is a crisp pull at maybe 4.5 lbs. The sights are fixed, with tritium inserts. The point of impact with 230 grain ammo is just a hair above point of aim, which is exactly my preference.

Top end of the gun is lightly polished stainless. The frame is a jet black, not quite flat looking but certainly doesn't shine or glint. Personally I wish that was reversed, with the blue/black up top, but that's just my taste. Twenty line per inch checkering on the front strap, much appreciated.

The recoil spring system is standard old school Colt Commander, no full length guide rod or weird front end plug to deal with. To me this means easier disassembly/assembly, no tools needed. That may be one of my favorite features of this thing.

It's been through two range and two dry fire sessions, no issues came up with gun or its operator. So the RCS is good to go for carry.
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Re: Range Reports

Post by Stryker74 »

Brian D. wrote:Sig Sauer 1911 RCS model, .45acp

So I tumbled for a new-to-me low miles used 1911 a week or two ago. Specifically the Sig Sauer RCS model. It has a 4.25" barrel (like a Colt Commander) and compact (like a Colt Officer's ACP) grip frame. In fact Colt makes such a product themselves and market it as the "Concealed Carry Officer's" or CCO for short. Anyhow, enough about imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, let's discuss this Sig.

The RCS is the same dimensions as...here I go again...the Sig C3 model, but the RCS is given a few extra touches in the custom shop. Mainly the corners and edges are rounded off somewhat, making the gun more pleasant to grab, hold, and shoot. I suspect the trigger works got some polishing as well, it is a crisp pull at maybe 4.5 lbs. The sights are fixed, with tritium inserts. The point of impact with 230 grain ammo is just a hair above point of aim, which is exactly my preference.

Top end of the gun is lightly polished stainless. The frame is a jet black, not quite flat looking but certainly doesn't shine or glint. Personally I wish that was reversed, with the blue/black up top, but that's just my taste. Twenty line per inch checkering on the front strap, much appreciated.

The recoil spring system is standard old school Colt Commander, no full length guide rod or weird front end plug to deal with. To me this means easier disassembly/assembly, no tools needed. That may be one of my favorite features of this thing.

It's been through two range and two dry fire sessions, no issues came up with gun or its operator. So the RCS is good to go for carry.
I used this very model of gun at Fun n' Gun 2 years ago. It is one of my typical carry guns (on my side right now).

I have been very, very pleased with it over the past few years.
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Wilson Combat Beretta 92 trigger bar

Post by jeep45238 »

Wilson Combat Beretta 92 trigger bar

Not a gun review, but a review of a great part.

Just got done installing it, no range time yet. Quite an amazing difference in my opinion. The hammer gets back in DA nearly as far as it does in SA, and the front sight post doesnt hop up and to the right every time in double action as the hammer falls. So sad itll be a while before I can get it to the range.

Right now it has a 14# hammer spring in it, also shipped with a 13 and 12. It will be interesting to see the difference between them all at the range.

This should be a Beretta factory installed part in my opinion.

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Range Reports - S&W M&P 45 Midsize (4" barrel)

Post by dl1911 »

Range Reports - S&W M&P 45 Midsize (4" barrel)

This is the model with the full size grip but shortened barrel. I picked it up new last weekend and have taken it to the range twice, 200rds each time. I picked this up to be lazy about IDPA classifiers. IDPA lets you apply a classifier to every division in which the gun would be legal and allowed. For instance, you could shoot a full size 1911 in 45 for both CDP & ESP. This gun would be legal in all 4 pistol divisions so one classifier takes care of that requirement for all pistols divisions.

A little bit more initial cleaning than I'm used to seeing, but nothing excessive. When field stripping it, a small lever has to be moved out from inside the magwell. A tool is included and is part of the gun but you can use just about anything. I've been using my finger or a handy small screwdriver or punch. No need to pull the trigger although I understand that it can be done that way. When reassembling, pull the lever back up into the grip. As with many guns today, it came with 3 different backstraps and the medium backstrap was installed and not bad. Tried the large but didn't like it (don't care for large grips which is one reason I don't personally care for Glocks in .45 or 10mm). Put the small backstrap and had trouble believing it was a 45 doublestack. I like it very much with this one on.

Two range trips with cleaning in between. 200rds each trip and had no jams, misfeeds, etc. It ran 100%. It is tough getting the 10th round in the magazine but just needed to push down a little harder with the upLula loader I use. Not too many long shots, but very impressed. Don't think it would be good for Bullseye where you'd want a longer barrel, but seems to be more than accurate enough for practical use. Very light and slim as well so I'm tempted to use it for EDC (I tend to go midsize instead of small or pocket). Trigger was a touch gritty but is smoothing out. Slam the magazine in right and it will go into battery without racking the slide or using the slide stop/release. I was worried about the slide stop because it is very flush with the frame but had no problems using it to lock the slide back or release it even when wearing nitrile gloves covered in CLP from cleaning.

Two magazines were included and I've already got more on order. Don't know if I'll try and of the 14rd magazines as I wouldn't use them very often.

It didn't come with night sights but several choices at Brownell's or looks like it would be easy to paint them.

Very impressed so far. I may also look at one of the Apex triggers available for it.
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Re: Range Reports - S&W M&P 45 Midsize (4" barrel)

Post by Brian D. »

dl1911 wrote:Range Reports - S&W M&P 45 Midsize (4" barrel)

Two magazines were included and I've already got more on order. Don't know if I'll try and of the 14rd magazines as I wouldn't use them very often.



Very impressed so far. I may also look at one of the Apex triggers available for it.
Great report! Those 14 round mags are a bit long and unwieldy for carry in the gun, but probably good for off side spare use.

The Apex upgrade is a good idea in my opinion.
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Re: Ruger SR1911 CMD Range Report

Post by BuckJM53 »

After spending a few range sessions with my new Commander (now at 600 flawless rounds), I wanted to take a moment and offer my initial thoughts for what they are worth. While I know that some reading this probably aren't excited about or comfortable with with the SR's cast frame and MIM parts, I must say that this relatively inexpensive pistol has so far exceeded my expectations.

Finish
In one word .... Flawless. It was perfect out of the box and looks IMHO equal to stainless steel pistols costing hundreds/thousands more.

Fit
While I was impressed with the fit the day of purchase, the digital calipers confirmed what I already suspected to be true:
1. Slide to frame fit - uniform and very good at .0019 clearance (no "slop" vertically or horizontally).
2. Barrel to bushing fit - very good with a .0017 clearance
3. Bushing to slide fit - good with a .0023 clearance (it can be removed with my fingers but is much easier to remove with the bushing wrench).
4. While in battery, there was no perceptible vertical movement when pressing on the barrel hood.
5. Both magazines had a positive lock and a proper release with no hangups.

Accuracy
While I've seen reports (Gunblast and others) demostrating that these pistols are capable of sub 2" groups at 25 yards from a Ransom rest, my only concern is what it will do in my hands out to 10 yards or so. So far it has consistently produced sub 2" groups off hand at 10 yards, which in my book makes it plenty accurate for my needs.


At the end of the day, while the SR1911 is certainly not a match grade Les Baer, Nighthawk or Ed Brown, it is a pretty impressive production 1911 for the price IMHO :). (YMMV)

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Re: Range Reports

Post by curmudgeon3 »

Was that hole made by .45s ....... the shape looks a little odd.
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Re: Range Reports

Post by BuckJM53 »

curmudgeon3 wrote:Was that hole made by .45s ....... the shape looks a little odd.
Yes sir it is :D. Unfortunately the backer was chewed up pretty bad and when I removed the target the hole tore at the top. The actual hole created by the 5 rounds was smaller :wink:.
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